Last night, I sat down with Sean T. Collins, Stefan Sasse, and Amin Javadi at the Boiled Leather Audio Hour to talk even more about the World of Ice and Fire. Join us as we discuss Dornish letters, the Revolt of the Faithful, retcons, the Blackfyre Rebellion, and so much more! (we never even got to the Reach!)
Race for the Iron Throne 
Just as long as it doesn’t distract you from chapter summaries and your LGM posts Steve!
It’s an hour and a half. Not a huge distraction.
Yeah well, even if it was, I don’t think anyone here has any moral authority to criticize it. It’s not like there’s a paywall on the site or you’re getting paid for this. I don’t say it often enough, but I do have some idea of the amount of work and time that has to go into your postings here. I think that some people forget that you’re doing this because you like doing it.
That said, I greatly enjoy your Chapter analyses and look forward to them. I also know that you’re entitled to a life like everyone else.
I’ve downloaded the podcast, but not listened to it yet. Looking forward to it.
Thanks. And don’t worry, I’m not going to stop with the chapter analyses. Working on Bran III right now.
Hey, sorry if it sounded like I was criticizing Steve there folks…really I was just kidding!
In all seriousness, I can’t tell you how much I appreciate this site-not just for Steve’s excellent critiques but for all the other commentators (including you David!) as well and the discussions we have here.
Regarding the supposed long list of people who had to die for Viserys to become king, I don’t think that’s really true. The only person who had to die when he did was Prince Aemon (and, I guess, Prince Aegon). As Prince Baelon’s eldest son, Viserys would have become king whenever he died. Vaegon was behind Viserys’ father, and thus under most systems would be behind Viserys.
Ok, two people had to die (Viserys certainly could have died before Baelon did), although as we’ve seen, it’s quite possible for the son of the older brother to be overlooked at a Great Council.
Regarding your discussion of Cregan’s age at the time of the war and his marriages, the Norrey marriage is actually his first, so that’s further evidence that it makes little sense for him to not have been old enough to fight (TWOIAF suggests that the reason was he was waiting until the harvest had been gathered as the reason).
Wait…the Norrey marriage came first? That’s really confusing. He was a pretty young man when he married Black Aly.
That’s per the MUSH info, so there’s some wiggle room, but given that the names of his wives, etc., all come from there, I think it should be assumed to be the case unless shown otherwise.
That doesn’t make sense, tho. According to the family tree, it’s Lyanara’s sons (Brandon, Jonnel, Barthogan) who become the lords of Winterfell. Arra’s son doesn’t become lord, nor any of her grandkids.
It’s got to be the other way around, that Cregan married Black Aly, but only had daughters, then married Lyanara and had four sons with her, then married Arra and had one son with her.
No, actually, you’ve identified one of the big question marks about the Stark family tree, which I expect is setup for “She-Wolves of Winterfell” (or whatever it ends up being called). That being the passing-over of Rickon Stark’s daughters.
We know that Rickon came first (that he was older than Lynara’s children, anyway), because it’s noted that “Lord Cregan Stark’s son and heir” Rickon fought in the Second Dornish War and “Rickon’s death outside of Sunspear in one of the final battles was lamented in the North for years to come because of the troubles that dogged the reigns of his half brothers” (page 141).
So Rickon died, leaving his daughters Serena and Sansa. Lord Cregan either passed them over in favour of his younger songs and married them to those sons to neutralize any future claim problems, or after Cregan’s death the uncles staged a coup.
Thus Jonnel married Sansa, and Edric married Serena. However, on Jonnel’s death without heirs it would seem that Edric (the second son) was also dead, as his line with Serena was passed over (again, in her case) in favour of the third son, Barthogan, and then the fourth, Brandon (whose son Beron is the progenitor of the contemporary Stark family).
So despite Jon Snow’s boast to Cregan Karstark, a man’s daughters don’t, in fact, always come before his brothers in the North.
Oh…I completely didn’t put two and two together. Norrey did come first, Aly second, then Lyanara.
I suppose the confusing thing is how Cregan Stark was supposedly too young to fight in Princess and the Queen, and then has an entire marriage begin and end before the Hour of the Wolf in time for him to marry Black Aly.
Is there a transcript? No offense meant, I simply prefer reading to listening to an extended discussion.
Ah, no.
Hey there Steve, I’m not sure if this is the common explanation going about, but the reason why Euron has the Dragonhorn is because he came across Pyat Pree and his mages as they were setting out to get their revenge on Dany. The fact we don’t ever have a clear idea of what the Warlocks possess or can get their hands on make it a viable option for them to pull out a dragon horn from their storage container if they’re going to go after Dany. And then as proof of Euron’s capture of the Warlocks ship is his possession of Shade of the Evening and a few Warlocks in tow. I personally believe that he had Pyat Pree killed and fed to the other Warlocks to break them.
Really like that episode, I hope you’ll make another guest appearance on boiler leather soon!
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