RFTIT Tumblr Weeklyish Roundup!

shipbooks

So Season 7’s over, my essay about LF’s schemes is up, and Sam I is around 11,000 words long (contender for longest ever, to be sure!). I’m still chugging away at that – and Parcel of Rogues Part II – and hoping to have it up by Monday.

But in the meantime, we got Tumblrs to talk about:

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10 thoughts on “RFTIT Tumblr Weeklyish Roundup!

  1. Murc says:

    While I think that Samwell I is a pivotally important chapter that is oft-overlooked because it is stuck in a book with a ton other pivotally important chapter, I would not have thought your CBC analyses of it would have run this long. I’m now very much looking forward to it, because your words are the best words.

    Although man. Your Catelyn VII is going to be… VERY long if you keep this up.

    • thatrabidpotato says:

      If you go back to the very first chapters of Game, Steven’s analyses were only a couple paragraphs. Now, five years on, they have ballooned to often being considerably longer than the chapters themselves. Not that I’m complaining, because every one of these analyses is incredible and thought provoking and a bunch of other good stuff, but it’s interesting to note the creep.

      RE: this week’s Tumblr, I have zero problem with Jon/Dany. They weren’t raised together, so no Westermarck effect, and there’s plenty of precedent for it in both Houses. In the modern world would be a completely different thing, but this is not the modern world.

      What if Cat had gotten pregnant and delivered a girl? Steven’s response to the question only deals with the event that this hypothetical sixth Stark child is a boy.

      • Murc says:

        In the modern world would be a completely different thing, but this is not the modern world.

        … you don’t live in the modern world? What world do you live in?

        More seriously, while Westeros may not be the modern world, the people who are reading it do live there, and the narrative is being constructed for the consumption of modern readers. Said narrative doesn’t have any problem with painting Jaime and Cersei’s incest as bad and wrong. It doesn’t have any problem with portraying Xaro Xhoan Daxos as an amoral monster despite the fact that his worldview is widely accepted as logical, virtuous, and morally upright by many cultures within the setting.

        So I think some of us would have a right to get irked if the narrative paints an aunt and nephew boning as some sort of desirably romantic outcome. Westeros doesn’t actually exist. The people in it don’t have agency. It’s a narrative being made for the consumption of those of us here and now, and we both can and should arrive at normative judgments regarding the things it paints as positive and the things it paints as negative.

        • Sean C. says:

          Both GRRM’s canon and the fandom tends to treat Jaehaerys I/Alysanne as totally fine (indeed, I’d easily argue that they’re one of the most overall happy romances depicted in ASOIAF’s backstory), so I’ve been a bit surprised at the surprise in some quarters at an aunt/nephew pairing (which has often been viewed as okay in cultures, particularly in the cultures on which ASOIAF is mainly based).

        • thatrabidpotato says:

          My point is that Targaryens are known for routine brother-sister pairings, and this isn’t even that. The Starks have aunt-nephew pairings in their tree, and so do the Targs.

          XXD is an amoral monster because he rapes children and actively trades in slaves, something almost all cultures in the setting, other than the Ghiscari, would find repellent.

          You have to judge these things in the context of the setting. Almost every POV in the story is a noble; should we be irked if they all aren’t guillotined by the end of it and Westeros governed by a flourishing Jeffersonian democracy?

          • Murc says:

            My point is that Targaryens are known for routine brother-sister pairings, and this isn’t even that. The Starks have aunt-nephew pairings in their tree, and so do the Targs.

            Yes, and that’s not cool.

            You have to judge these things in the context of the setting.

            We have to do no such thing. Judging these things in the context of how the narrative presents them is not only allowed, it’s a superior analytical tool.

            XXD is an amoral monster because he rapes children and actively trades in slaves, something almost all cultures in the setting, other than the Ghiscari, would find repellent.

            Except the Ghiscari. And the Dothraki. And seven out of nine of the Free Cities. And the Quartheen. And the Patrimony of Hyrkoon.

            You are objectively wrong when you say “almost all” the cultures in the setting would find these things repellent.

            Almost every POV in the story is a noble; should we be irked if they all aren’t guillotined by the end of it and Westeros governed by a flourishing Jeffersonian democracy?

            No, but we should be irked if the story presents rule by a noble whose only claim to authority is an accident of birth as a desirable state to be in and people being imbued with virtue and the qualities of enlightened rulership merely because of their bloodlines, which are ordained by god.

            They do not do this. Martin consistently portrays the society of Westeros as being deeply, deeply fucked up and many of those fuckups stemming from the fact that its a rather backwards feudal state that depends on sword arms and blood right to keep things operating. There are no Aragorns in it.

            The facts within the setting can, and should, be judged based on how the narrative presents them to us, the readers, and not how approved of or not approved of they are by the fictional characters in the fictional world.

      • Brett says:

        Dany/Jon is a little icky, but I’m not convinced that Dany is ever going to definitely find out that Jon is a Targ. I think Jon’s going to “refuse the crown” three times, and the third time will be the opportunity to openly declare himself a Targaryen son.

  2. Keith B says:

    Perhaps instead of (or in addition to) a naval base, Bear Island could host a shipyard. It doesn’t have the forests that are near Torrhen’s Square, but it does have pines and other trees, and it would be a way to reward the Mormonts for their loyalty.

    The question about ships at Torrhen’s Square or Barrowton is whether the rivers are navigable by seagoing vessels. If not, you’d need to look elsewhere.

    If the Starks want to pursue this, they should probably split things up so that (say) the Tallharts get the naval base, the Dustins have a commercial port, and the Mormonts have a shipyard. That would spread the rewards around and give them incentives for cooperating with each other.

  3. Steven Xue says:

    I actually think that Cat falling pregnant before Ned left for King’s Landing might have been enough to save her life and possibly Robb’s at the Red Wedding. Because with her child becoming a standard for the remaining Stark and Tully loyalists to rally behind, Walder would therefore need more valuable hostages than just Edmure to one up the Blackfish and convince him to surrender, and this would be especially important if he still has Jaime in his custody.

    Plus keeping Robb alive and imprisoned means Blackfish won’t be able to declare his youngest ‘living’ brother (or sister) his heir. It would be like how Bloodraven kept Daemon II Blackfyre prisoner after his failed rebellion at Whitewalls to prevent Bittersteel from crowning his brother Haegon.

  4. Brett says:

    The Heart of Winter/Great Other/Snow Sauron is at the North Pole. I can’t really see that expedition being done in any way without the dragons, because Bran’s group already did the whole “stalked through the frozen woods” bit. They barely survived a trip of (at most) a few hundred miles or less, only because Coldhands resorted to cannibalism to feed them.

    Granted, none of that probably applies to Jon himself, since he’ll be a fire-wight who might not feel cold or have to eat or drink. And it would make a pretty cool image, especially since if they’re all flying north on dragon-back then the “three heads of the dragon” will probably have to fight ice dragons at some point to get to the Great Other (whatever it is).

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