And we’re back, folks!
They should of introduced the miller’s wife in s1 instead of ros & made some vague reference’s about her kids being theon’s…anyway good stuff.
Is Theon from the books old enough to be the father of a kid that could pass for Bran? Isn’t like 18 when the series starts?
He’s a bit older, more like 21. And Bran’s a bit younger, 9 years old. But if I recall correctly, Theon uses the tar to ensure that people will “look with their hearts and not their eyes.”
Well, there’s the younger boy who he’s definitely old enough to have fathered. So even if he only fathered one of them…he’d still be a kinslayer instead of “just” someone who murdered two boys to prop up his rep.
Theon is nineteen in the first chapter. Bran is seven when the books begin – so book!Theon is *just* old enough to have sired a boy of six or seven. Though that’s stretching it a lot (twelve is really really pushing it). I’m sure pre-Reek Theon would love for us to THINK he’s that precocious, though.
Assuming show Theon is aged up a bit, same thing applies. And he’s definitely old enough to have fathered the younger boy in either case, which would give credence to the kinslayer accusation.
Yeah Theon is at least nineteen at this point and the younger boy is about 4 so its definitely possible he might have killed his own aon. (If unknowingly.) And thus brought the curse of kinslaying on his head thus Ramsay (who is also a kinslayer.)
Though I didn’t mind the change on the show because knowing he murdered children was damning enough to viewers Ubsullied.
Yes, it’s stressed that even kinslayers who don’t know they are kinslayers are still cursed. (It has made me wonder sometimes – if the dire wolves are kin to the Starks in a way, was Ned cursed for killing Lady, even though it was mean to be a mercy?)
@Steven: I’m a bit surprised to hear your take on the Jaime/Alton cage scene, because I’m usually nodding my head in agreement with most of your analyses.
I would argue that the unspoken contempt in which book!Jaime holds Cleos is a long league’s worth of difference from deliberately murdering a blood relative, even a distant one, as part of an escape stratagem. Post-Kingslaying, pre-maiming Jaime (“Interregnum Jaime,” maybe?) has made a conscious choice to reject all of the moral values that compete with “family first.” He’ll do terrible things *for* his family (e.g. Bran), not *to* his family.
And murdering Alton isn’t just morally repugnant in a way that makes it distinctly out of character for Jaime, even interregnum Jaime. It’s a stupid tactical move. The shot of Jaime pretending to sleep as Karstark approaches indicates that his stratagem relies on Karstark not seeing that Jaime has just beat Alton’s skull in; he needs Karstark to approach and investigate closely in order to strangle him.
That objective was just as likely to succeed if Jaime had enlisted Alton rather than murdering him. Step 1: Alton fakes a seizure. Step 2: Jaime uses verbal pressure to get Karstark into the cell immediately (“Quickly, before he bites off his own tongue [and loses value as a hostage]! You have to help me, I can’t get something in his mouth while he’s thrashing and my hands are chained!”) Step 3: Alton & Jaime kill Karstark and Jaime has an accomplice/meat shield available to aid his escape attempt.
tl;dr –> Murdering Alton was badly out of character for Jaime and a stupid tactical move besides, inserted solely for cheap and “edgy” shock value.
You and Scott talking about ways to deal with the “deaths” of Bran & Rickon got me thinking. the story of a king or prince who supposedly died but turns up alive due to being replaced that the two of you came up as one way of trying to deal with that plot point? I heard you guys talking about that and all I could think about was Aegon VI. That is his story. Make of that what you will.
Why does Catelyn set Jaime free that particular night rather than months earlier? One is that Catelyn only now has Brienne who is sworn to her as a person and not the Starks and Robb. Another is in the books, Lord Karstark’s two sons are killed by Jaime at the Battle of the Whispering Woods. In the show, only one son is killed by Jaime at the Battle of the Whispering Woods. The other one is the guard that Jaime has just killed. So she fears (rightly) that Lord Karstark will murder Jaime with Robb away at The Crag and Brienne mentions that the men are all drinking and Jaime won’t last through the night. Catelyn knows that if Jaime is killed, the Lannisters will kill Arya and Sansa. That’s why she lets him go with Brienne. Agree or disagree with her, I don’t think it’s fair in that particular case that the show didn’t lay any groundwork (Catelyn now has Brienne, Robb’s away, Jaime killing Lord Karstark’s son the previous night) as to why Catelyn does what she does. Plus even if she doesn’t think that Bran and Rickon are dead, in the show she’s very aware that with the ironborn capturing Winterfell (which only happened like one episode ago, right?) her two other sons are in real danger (maybe it’s not as intense as thinking Bran and Rickon are dead, but Winterfell controlled by the ironborn is still pretty intense in and of itself) so she’s more motived to have at least some of children safe.
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